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Redo OA?
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I just remembered something else. i will just post stuff as i remember. :D

Did joki mention he used q3 sounds on OA... well he may not even be aware or care of this, but the q3 sounds would be a HUGE advantage. The OA sounds are so low that the engine doesnt use the correct volumes at locations. I cant remember how i found this out but regardless of how loud you turn up the volume, all the different sounds arent heard as the shoud (im talking about distance between players and stuff).

That is another reason why i cant play OA.. i play q3 and i can almost pin point an ememy by a sound.. but on oa its just random crap you hear IMO.

On q3 mods.. many people may not realise you can play q3 on OA servers. All you need to do is compile ioq3 or whatever and change the protocol to 71 (or the one you want). I think you might be restricted to bright sarge model but thats the only issue i think on custom maps. I always played oa using q3... i had a number of executables that i used to launch a game.. it it was a q3 mod i would run q3 on an OA server. I cant remember if i still had the same fps issues.. but i guess some people might know what causes these spikes in fps, but arent prepared to say so :) otherwise it's another major bug in the game.

edit: one other thing about compiling q3 to work on oa ... there is a checksum that checks the size of pak0.pk3.. i think that checksum is used for checking the player has got the real pak0.pk3.. but i removed it in my usual kamikaze coding experiments and it worked fine. If I sound like I know what I'm doing.... i dont..... i just looked at errors then searched through the code and removed or copy paste stuff.

jack thompson will also confirm this as I was using '#' as remarks in the code and was so frustrated it didnt work :D However, I still managed to figure it out without NO coding knowledge whatsoever
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

The one problem though, i dont think its gonna go GPL.

I got laughed at when I mentioned I played v1.16 yet they dont even consider the only difference between them could be the protocol :) Reemember its a modded server and client.

I have another idea. Why dont we just forget about all this work... play Q3 on a master server which is clean of all the shit on 1.32. People can still work on mods.. is everyone really in such a bad situation they cant pick up a copy of q3 for a quid or two? That would give a complete solution with no base work required at all. All servers have high speed dl and such. All q3 mods are compatible. Whatever is decided, I hope it all goes well as I am embarrased when I goto 1.32 and invite ppl and find most servers you cannot connect to. :/
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

MIOW - you are right.. accurate rocks.

I dont know anything about how it works or claim to be knowlegable... but i messed around with settings and i got them mostly from clanbase server settings. pmove_fixed isnt too bad though, I can tell a pmove_fixed server within 10 seconds of moving around. pmove_accurate does more rounding calculations so you can play with low cl_maxpackets and you will glide much more smoothly. The opponent wont be affected by the low packets because of the client prediction.. so it gives high pingers a good oppertunity to play without a handicap. I get my ass kicked by people with 400 ping yet on OA i constantly hear this ping obsession. It doesnt have to be an issue

I also tried something and set fps 25 and i could hardly see what i was doing or found it hard to control.. but when i played back the demo with smooth clients i could see what was happening.. the playback showed me gliding gently instead of being laggy. pmove_accurate also times everything much closer to real game play. pmove_fixed will drop frames. Anyone who uses pmove_fixed will find themselves falling at edges and stuff because of dropped frames. Maybe they dont because they get used to it.. but they cant jump so close to the edge. Maybe thats why people can do the last circle jump in xcm_tricks2 with accurate code.

The reason you wont get pmove_accurate in unlagged 2.01 ( i believe ) is because it is not hastes work - remember these guys shared alot of stuff. I've heard if you enquire/ask for it, their should be no problem getting it..

I already posted this before but mav will explain more...

forums.noghost.net/cgi...f=9;t=4425
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MIOW
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Joined: May 18, 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

a_clown wrote:

-keep vq3-like-physics ( fps-independend )
A few times i read that people used Haste's pmove_accurate code in their mods, not sure if it's publically available though.
forums.wireheadstudios...pic=3553.0

a_clown wrote:

-build in competitive features, we need "gamer-developers" :
1.brightskins or better pm-skins
2.good sounds
3. serverdemo recording
4. Better Tourney-features
5. ...
Many ideas in this thread are very nice. I'll try not to repeat what is already mentioned.
Features for holding matches, such as speclock and timeout...
Something like GTV, would be cool to have voice commentation feature with it, maybe VoIP can be useful at least for that.
Better demo playback.
Custom HUD...

a_clown wrote:

-good gametypes:
dm (i know its not good...)
TDM
CTF
?One Flag CTF?
Freezetag
Defrag-like
:) + Clan Arena because it's popular (but not my fav), something fortress-like as QL keeps its TeamArena CTF and CPMA's NTF...

Joki wrote:

Yea, thats why i tried to start out #instantctf @ qnet, to get some serious and good matches. :)
Now Rainbot remains on that channel without op and noone able to change this :(

Falkland wrote:

- balanced weapons , expecially LG and RG revision : I've proposed on OA forum to have LG and RG damage at range ( eg 7-6-5 hp per bolt respectively at low-mid-high range for LG - 100-90-80 hp per shot at low-mid-high range for RG )
But as fairly noticed sago, it's not possible to change damage only for two weapons, then damage should be changed for every weapon. As it was with CPM/CQ3 and QL.
I like the idea of CQ3 and it would be nice to see actual gameplay changes. The gameplay is 10 years old and there're many things to improve. Is it reasonable to maintain it as it is when even ID already dropped it? Not only weapon rebalance, e.g. improved item system, changed max amount of ammo for weapons you can have, /drop command... Even some innovations in physics could add new grade to gameplay not removing its goodness. e.g. walljump, performed by regular jump key, not special key as in Warsow.
I would like to see new game pretending to be a sequel rather than clone.

kernel_panic wrote:

-Include the most popular mods by default if license allows, otherwise make it easy to install them via the repository
Most of mods are built against ancient versions of Q3 SDK, many are no longer maintained. Some popular mods transformed into standalone games, some will in the near future as CPMA (PMX) and RA3. Is it even worth to keep compatibility with them?
The only mod which will be missing is defrag, so isn't it better to just make in addition standalone version of defrag, using same textures/models/icons... and dfengine?

kernel_panic wrote:

-License splitting? Can we even do this, i.e. having a sane and appropiate license for art work and GPL for the code?
artlibre.org/licence/lal/en/ ?
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chiquita
Alpacas Approved
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Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 1410
Location: psychiatric ward

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

And a bunch of source code files here :

q3eu.com/site/modules....sourcecode

Dunno about licencing but people share the same code or just use it regardless. The pm skin support is in one of these mods, I think it's Quake3Arena++_src.zip
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chiquita
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Location: psychiatric ward

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I would look at the noghost vars and see how mav has worked it. Many of these have been a result of direct requests. And some of them have changed because they didnt work out, or had additional related values that offer more options (such as all the anti-camp measures).

noghost.net/modfiles/1...mmands.php

It might give ideas, because these are tried and tested solutions. clanbase currently run noghost and cpma competitions.. google a clanbase server config and see what rules have been implemented. These rules have also changed over time because some TDM games have lasted over an hour, so the server settings should be pretty much ideal for what people want.

I really don't see the point of discussing from the beginning how to resolve some annoyances, especially when it may not annoy others and from almost a decade ago people have already been addressing the issues

In the clanbase/noghost forums there are probably lots of discussions on camping and there have been anti-camp things put in place that have compimises... it might be that the radius has been increased so you can still play tactful and not end up getting killed by some stupid restriction. Hundreds of people are quite happy to play by the clanbase rules, noone complains. cpma of course will have similar stuff which has been ported to noghost but I dont know about cpma. Most noghost servers are freeze tag.. so that should be considered.. some server configs contain stuff related to that type of gametype.

When I played osp I thought the number of cvars and options were a bit much. it confused people and most people dont want to remember or read tons of stuff that do very little.
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Speaker
Happy Camper
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Joined: Mar 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Szeged, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

chiquita wrote:

you know my feelings about not wanting to try and manage any kind of project. But I could submit some very special stuff by talented people. I could ask friends who are professionals in the industry to assist.

You would not have to manage or coordinate anything, don't worry. :/ I believe that even the two of us could make the minimal distro. It is not a big deal (we just have to throw out stuff, that's easy). And you already made a start and I already have a fairly good collection of custom maps for the map repository.

chiquita wrote:

One point I think should be considered, is that the discussions that go on with OA have all been discussed in 2002... You only need to look at all the popular stuff from the unpopular. No point in going round in circles. We already know what people want.

Yes, it is a good idea to look at the OA forums to see what changes would be popular and acceptable to the majority. But this would be stage 2, after the minimal distro is well established. And for this we would need more people contributing.

chiquita wrote:

IMO a minimal package would be ideal. For different game types perhaps there can be a modular package of maps that people can download totally compatible with the base package. Consider than some people will never go near defrag, and defrag players may just not be interested in playing tourney type stuff. But there still could be paks that come with the bundle that could allow people to give stuff a go.

I agree. The minimal distro should contain only a few basic maps necessary for playing the game types supported by the minimal distro. Everything else should be optional.

chiquita wrote:

Perhaps non gpl stuff could be agreed as recommended packages to keep them consistant on servers.

GPL and non-GPL modules should be strictly segregated to avoid nasty arguments with leilol and Co.

chiquita wrote:

If any code is required, it may not have to be written from scratch, sometimes by talking to the right people can help.

Nice to know the right people... :/

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Well,

you know my feelings about not wanting to try and manage any kind of project. But I could submit some very special stuff by talented people. I could ask friends who are professionals in the industry to assist.

As far as sounds go, I wouldnt be looking for sources on the web. They would be straight from recording studios and mastered to suit. It would be then up to people to choose what they want.

All i would need to do is speak to people, it would cost little time. My textures can be improved, so any poor work is better than starting from scratch.

The only thing that would keep me happy is having a small download containing sensible and quality material and it would be close to q3.

One point I think should be considered, is that the discussions that go on with OA have all been discussed in 2002... You only need to look at all the popular stuff from the unpopular. No point in going round in circles. We already know what people want. IMO a minimal package would be ideal. For different game types perhaps there can be a modular package of maps that people can download totally compatible with the base package. Consider than some people will never go near defrag, and defrag players may just not be interested in playing tourney type stuff. But there still could be paks that come with the bundle that could allow people to give stuff a go.

Perhaps non gpl stuff could be agreed as recommended packages to keep them consistant on servers.

If any code is required, it may not have to be written from scratch, sometimes by talking to the right people can help.
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Speaker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi,

I am also convinced that something should be done to make OA a better and more competitive game. I think that QL is not so great: it lacks good maps (at least for now) and does not allow the use of private servers. I have also heard that some people had problems with lag and instability (myself included).

Unfortunately, the attitude of OA developers/administrators (you know who) simply does not make it possible to do development within the 'official' framework. Therefore, it must be done by making a fork of the 'official' release.

The engine itself is mostly OK as it is. I do not see why it would be necessary or beneficial to revert to the original 1.32b code base of id. The developers of ioquake3 did a fairly good job of cleaning/fixing the code. Any additions (e.g. VoIP) can be easily removed if necessary. The rest of the stuff (artwork) needs cleaning up (removing crappy maps and models, resizing textures, adding good sounds, etc.). Something like what chiquita has already done.

The aim of the fork should be to get an absolutely minimal distribution that supports playing custom maps made for VQ3 and provides the most popular game modes (DM, TDM, CTF, Instagib). With the texture replacement pack chiquita and I made, every required element seems to be available to create such a minimal distro.

Next we could set up a map repository (like they did it for Nexuiz) and collect a bunch of nice custom maps there. The default install of the game would have auto download enabled and the download URL set to this map archive. Actually, a good, fast location already exists: we can probably get permission to use download.tuxfamily.org...files/pk3/. Of course, the minimal distro should also contain a selected group of maps (about 10 to 15) so that people can start playing off-line to try the game.

After the minimal distro is established, we can gradually introduce some of the new features/enhancements mentioned in this topic. I also have a few ideas about how and what to change (some of them I have already implemented in my source mod called Q3M). However, I think this is not the proper time to make a long (and possibly boring) list of them.

The crucial prerequisite for such a fork to work has already been stated by 'kernel_panic':

Quote::

Gather a critical mass of people willing to contribute and play. There are loads of individuals that appeared in the OA forum and later left for 'no reason'. Some of them are probably lurking mappers forums and should be possible to call their attention again. Coders may be a greater issue, and even worse 2D and 3D artists.

I myself would be glad to contribute to such a project. I have some experience in coding and compiling the engine, I have working code bases for several different versions of the OA engine. I also have some experience in making maps (did a couple of conversions of Quake and UT99 maps for Q3A).

Anybody else interested?

Speaker

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Falkland
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

kernel_panic wrote:

...
-Centralised statistics handling?
...

This could be problematic because it will need for sure a db-based solution

BTW , OA site is back ...
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I posted on ioquake3 forums see if anyone there knows anything. Strange how noone seems to be able give ANY kind of idea why its down.

There's alot of good content there from contributers.

ioquake.org/forums/vie...?f=2&t=573
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

[quote="Falkland"]
Falkland wrote:

...
- proximity mine can be used as a tactical weapon but they should be made spam-proof ( respawn time should be higher than normal weapons , and they should become a rare weapon
...

These are just fun things. Across 300 servers there are about 3 or 4 turret servers.. even decoys arent used.. but they are fun. I think it's too much noise and chaos to play properly. It can be tactical, but even so that it's much worse than hunting a camper. These things can be placed in walls too.. they are buggy.

They are best used on strafe runs just before someone is about to complete a set of pads xD

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

wtf has happend OA site? Its not the first time its been down, even for days. Probably be up later... or a maybe a week or two
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

ss and stuff should be kinda easy.. just get it from the osp source. :/
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

- setup should be splitted.
a) normal, similar to what it is like now, rather basic settings like "low quality & high fps" and "high quality" to choose from, without needing to know details
b) pro, adds all the extra options, that are normaly put in the autoexec.cfg. like team binds generator. or - an autoexec generator like this one: www.holysh1t.net/quake...generator/ is linked in the setup, so more people, who are willing to invest some time, can have a decent setup.

- automatic log files of games / in-game chat / game stats
these logs could be read by other programs, to create for example a html game statistic on the basis of the logs in your game folder.

-automatic screenshots of scores.
not possible so far, as screenshots kill the optix and need a vid_restart on some gfxcards.

..more brainstorming later ;)

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