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Redo OA?
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chiquita
Alpacas Approved
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I have joined the forums and linked where I will place any of the gpl media I can provide.

I have also sent speaker the redone textures with the rainbow style portals/teleportors (although I dont know if they have been added as yet).

I can try to contact people from the past who maybe able to help, but with so much on my to do and keep doing list I will probably be more of a liability if I take much more on.

I think it will be a fun project and even though the default OA textures aren't in the core game, any OA maps can just be compatible as the custom ones found elsewhere so I assume it can be just as useful or even assist mappers who are building the ones for OA (since q3min is a small download).
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Speaker
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi PopeJo,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have some comments and questions concerning the ideas you proposed.

Quote::

speclock - make it impossible for players to spec the other team in gametypes like TDM, CA, and such.

I understand the aim of this restriction, but how can the server determine if someone connecting as a spectator is a member of one of the teams or an interested outsider who just wants to see the game? Is there a system like this implemented (and working correctly!) in any mod? Maybe we could check/compare IP numbers? It would force the false spectator to use a different computer and/or connection, and would make the whole thing so inconvenient as to be practically useless.

Quote::

implement real teammodel and enemymodel cvars.

This should not be very difficult (after all, code to force a user specified model is already there). I will give it a try.

Quote::

is the announcer bug in here

Most probably yes, since the Q3MIN engine is derived from the Openarena engine source (not pure ioquake3 stuff). Not much chance of fixing if this bug is so intermittent and hard to reproduce.

Quote::

make the sarge default model less fps hungry

As soon as you persuade a good 3D modeler to join us, it will be done. I cannot make even the simplest MD3 model. :(

Speaker

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi pulchr,

Thanks for you thoughts and the fast reply.

pulchr wrote:

in my opinion there's no need to limit the amount of max ammo each weapon can have.

Well, maybe it would make players a bit more cautious about wasting rockets or grenades in random sprees.

Quote::

changing any of the weapons' firing rate changes their use and the gameplay completely and should be tested extremely thoroughly to see if there's a point.

I just included the _possibility_ of doing it easily if the need arises.

Quote::

i believe more in changing their damage than firing rate - for example i could go along with a small reduction of the railgun damage and a change to the lightning gun so that it makes less damage at longer distances (changed in quake live).

OK, these can be done I think. I will give it a try if other people here also agree. What would be a reasonable railgun damage value? Should the LG damage fall off smoothly by distance? How is it working in QL?

Quote::

the bfg is really only a ffa easy fun gun and should not be included in teamplay maps anyway - leave it as it is imo.

Opinions differ, lets hear what others say on this.

Quote::

i don't see a reason to remove the team arena weapons. it's better for the server to have settings that can disable weapons not suitable. if i set up a server where people always spawn with all the weapons but i don't like the bfg or prox mines i could set a variable to disable them. and maps designed to contain these weapons are designed like that for a reason.

Again, we need consensus. We also have to consider the current situation. Are these weapons (maps containing these weapons) used frequently? Are there many servers using these weapons or other elements of TA? Also, we have decided that we want a minimal Q3A distro. Now missionpack/TA is a later add-on (and AFAIK a not very popular one at that). So why keep it?

BTW, all this stuff really bloats and complicates the code (countless #ifdef #else #endif constructs that are very hard to follow). Easy to make mistakes when you modify such code. It would be much easier to maintain the source without all this shit.

Quote::

and i guess that the fast weapon switch is an instant weapon change, no delay whatsoever - and therefore need to be server controlled if the server admin wants people to be able to change their weapons instantly. this however, should probably be turned off as default.

It is OFF by default. I will change the type of Cvar to server side.

Quote::

a change that i would like to see though is that a dropped weapon only should contain as much ammo as was in it when it was dropped. if i only have two rockets left in my RL and blow up myself with one of them. then the RL dropped near the body would only contain one rocket when the next player comes by and picks it up. i think this would make ammo boxes and the real weapon spawn positions more valuable.

as it is now you get fully replenished ammo when you pick up a dropped weapon - very strange if you ask me :D

Yes, you are right. This is a good idea. It will be a bit tricky to do since at present the engine considers all weapon items identical. So I will have to add a new variable to each weapon's parameter structure that will hold the actual amount of ammo in it. Not sure if possible, I will try it.

Speaker

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pulchr
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

in my opinion there's no need to limit the amount of max ammo each weapon can have. changing any of the weapons' firing rate changes their use and the gameplay completely and should be tested extremely thoroughly to see if there's a point. i believe more in changing their damage than firing rate - for example i could go along with a small reduction of the railgun damage and a change to the lightning gun so that it makes less damage at longer distances (changed in quake live).

the bfg is really only a ffa easy fun gun and should not be included in teamplay maps anyway - leave it as it is imo.

i don't see a reason to remove the team arena weapons. it's better for the server to have settings that can disable weapons not suitable. if i set up a server where people always spawn with all the weapons but i don't like the bfg or prox mines i could set a variable to disable them. and maps designed to contain these weapons are designed like that for a reason.

and i guess that the fast weapon switch is an instant weapon change, no delay whatsoever - and therefore need to be server controlled if the server admin wants people to be able to change their weapons instantly. this however, should probably be turned off as default.

a change that i would like to see though is that a dropped weapon only should contain as much ammo as was in it when it was dropped. if i only have two rockets left in my RL and blow up myself with one of them. then the RL dropped near the body would only contain one rocket when the next player comes by and picks it up. i think this would make ammo boxes and the real weapon spawn positions more valuable.

as it is now you get fully replenished ammo when you pick up a dropped weapon - very strange if you ask me :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi,

Some questions about changes I have made / plan to make.

1. Added code to specify max ammo count for each weapon separately. Values are hard coded. Please, tell me if these values are OK or they should be changed:

MG 100 (50 for teamplay)
SG 50
GL 20
RL 20
LG 100
RG 20
PG 100
BF 10

Since I was coding weapon parameters anyway, I added a provision to easily change (hard coded of course, need recompiling) the firing rate and damage of individual weapons. Should any of these parameters changed, and if yes, then what are the suggested values?

2. Changed BFG hit/splash damage to half ot its previous value. I guess that even with its faster rate it is now only slightly more powerful than the RL. Also the max ammo is only 10 for BFG, so BFG rampages are no longer possible IMO. I did this because complete removal of BFG would be fairly complicated and may cause problems with maps that have it. Is this OK or should I rather completely remove it?

Also, what should be done with the mission pack weapons (nailgun, etc.) which are at present included? For that matter, should we get rid of the whole mission pack/TA shit? I vote to remove it completely and good riddance. Please, let me know you opinion.

@Snoosnoo:

Added instant weapon switch controlled by a Cvar called 'g_fastWeasponSwitch' (default zero for original behavior). But I see no reason to make this a server side Cvar. After all, it is the player's decision whether to use it or not, and it's available to all players equally.

Speaker

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SnooSnoo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

ROTFLMAO!

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Joki
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

PopeJo wrote:

btw, on the second screenshot is actually an enemy almost in mid of the picture. it is literally impossible to tell the default model from the backgound apart.



I'm starting to suspect, its YOU who is the granny here. LOOK CLOUWSER NUP AND YOU CLERLZ SEE SE ENEMI!1 I even see an animal, which i never noticed ingame, due to my haxx0r settings.

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PopeJo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Joki wrote:

well, YOUR gfx have already been killed before mr. gameboi-OA.

does this happen only when you use /screenshot or also when you use /screenshotJPEG ? i think the cvar /cg_useScreenshotJPEG exists only in osp, but screenshot and screenshotjpeg should work.

well:
PopeJo wrote:
happens with tga and jpg on some machines, like my laptop
you want me to repeat other things as well, old man? ;P


btw, on the second screenshot is actually an enemy almost in mid of the picture. it is literally impossible to tell the default model from the backgound apart.
/me goes and buys a screen-lense for his gameboy color...

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Joki
Übergod
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

PopeJo wrote:
well, a to do list:

fix the screenshot bug - taking a screenshot works, but kills gfx afterwards and needs a vid_restart.

well, YOUR gfx have already been killed before mr. gameboi-OA.

does this happen only when you use /screenshot or also when you use /screenshotJPEG ? i think the cvar /cg_useScreenshotJPEG exists only in osp, but screenshot and screenshotjpeg should work.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

well, a to do list:

speclock - make it impossible for players to spec the other team in gametypes like TDM, CA, and such.

is the announcer bug in here? - its been in OA ctf sometimes that the message "the enemy has your flag" is not being played. it needs hours of ctf playing until you have such a situation..I could not test your versions for long enough to validate the bug is also in q3min.

implement real teammodel and enemymodel cvars. - so you can, for example use a woman as teammodel and a brightskin male model as enemymodel. different sounds + different optics are a huge improvement in teamplay gametypes (tdm, ca, ...) to tell by sound and vision the friends from the foes =D

implement game logs - best would be to split it into
-a chatlog with timestamps and a serverlocation given at log start
-a statslog that contains weapons used, shots fired, enemies killed, ... can be used to draw statistics from them
-a system log, which is kind of already there, but contains mostly crap and hardly the real error messages that made a game crash

fix the screenshot bug - taking a screenshot works, but kills gfx afterwards and needs a vid_restart. happens with tga and jpg on some machines, like my laptop:


make the sarge default model less fps hungry - here is the old pulchr post comparing models of q3 and oa: openarena.ws/board/ind...6#msg21746

will keep testing and add more comments.

I really appreciate your work speaker. its awesome what your doing here. if some postings sound harsh, please keep in mind that most of us are not native speakers, and don't intend any offence, but are incapable of always hitting the right "tone" with their short postings =D
thumbs up for you, speaker :grin:

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Joki
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Oh, this reminds me i still have a folder, containg some former missing sound samples lying around on my disc somewhere. i'll upload them today, promised. :)

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SnooSnoo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Well, instant weapon change is a feature a fast game like this should have by default. A server side variable to enable/disable this maybe?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi,

Thanks for the reassurances, guys. Well, for me it is like this with any project I take on seriously. I am impatient, I want to proceed as fast as I can, sometimes working on it for 8 to 10 hours a day excluding everything else (I am a kind of a maniac in this respect ;) ) So please, disregard my rumblings (but hey, don't forget to send me stuff and ideas ASAP! :) ).

Speaker

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

i know i posted that i would come up with a number of things in a day or two - as usual things pops up and alter my plans...

much to do atm - but i will try hard to get myself together and sort out ideas and stuff and put it in a list. what has been done so far is great and do not be disheartened by whine or wishes - it just means that there's strong opinions and people eager to do something good. at least that's how i look at it.

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kernel_panic
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Quote::
OK, maybe this weapon selection scheme is not the greatest invention made in Q3A. To me it seemed a good idea, so I just did it. BTW, previously I posted a list of what I wanted to add and nobody had any comments about it.

So, why don't YOU tell me what to implement? I am still waiting for useful input from all the 'experts' who posted different wish lists here. Anyway, the game pack & code is there. Why don't you go ahead and contribute something that you think is great?

Hey, Speaker

I hope we didn't upset you, I don't think we were being harsh or anything. Actually, we said that your idea is neat but will probably be seldomly used. It's a bit like the 'multi-user' setup situation. I have strong opinions about it, but at the same time I think it's great that you can choose how you want your game to behave.

As for the suggestions, contributions and testing, give it time. I am, for instance, extremely busy and you managed to put together a new version before I tested what I had downloaded! Perhaps now that you did all this work and there's a real thing to work on it would be good to define where it should go to. I've been following this thread--which seems to have attracted some people--but I admit that I'm a bit confused about what's the ultimate goal of the project.

In any case, there are two kind of persons, the ones who talk about stuff, and the ones who do it. I talk. So don't pay much attention to what I say.

Keep it up!

:)

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