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Redo OA?
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Speaker
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Location: Szeged, Hungary

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi,

Some questions about changes I have made / plan to make.

1. Added code to specify max ammo count for each weapon separately. Values are hard coded. Please, tell me if these values are OK or they should be changed:

MG 100 (50 for teamplay)
SG 50
GL 20
RL 20
LG 100
RG 20
PG 100
BF 10

Since I was coding weapon parameters anyway, I added a provision to easily change (hard coded of course, need recompiling) the firing rate and damage of individual weapons. Should any of these parameters changed, and if yes, then what are the suggested values?

2. Changed BFG hit/splash damage to half ot its previous value. I guess that even with its faster rate it is now only slightly more powerful than the RL. Also the max ammo is only 10 for BFG, so BFG rampages are no longer possible IMO. I did this because complete removal of BFG would be fairly complicated and may cause problems with maps that have it. Is this OK or should I rather completely remove it?

Also, what should be done with the mission pack weapons (nailgun, etc.) which are at present included? For that matter, should we get rid of the whole mission pack/TA shit? I vote to remove it completely and good riddance. Please, let me know you opinion.

@Snoosnoo:

Added instant weapon switch controlled by a Cvar called 'g_fastWeasponSwitch' (default zero for original behavior). But I see no reason to make this a server side Cvar. After all, it is the player's decision whether to use it or not, and it's available to all players equally.

Speaker

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pulchr
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

in my opinion there's no need to limit the amount of max ammo each weapon can have. changing any of the weapons' firing rate changes their use and the gameplay completely and should be tested extremely thoroughly to see if there's a point. i believe more in changing their damage than firing rate - for example i could go along with a small reduction of the railgun damage and a change to the lightning gun so that it makes less damage at longer distances (changed in quake live).

the bfg is really only a ffa easy fun gun and should not be included in teamplay maps anyway - leave it as it is imo.

i don't see a reason to remove the team arena weapons. it's better for the server to have settings that can disable weapons not suitable. if i set up a server where people always spawn with all the weapons but i don't like the bfg or prox mines i could set a variable to disable them. and maps designed to contain these weapons are designed like that for a reason.

and i guess that the fast weapon switch is an instant weapon change, no delay whatsoever - and therefore need to be server controlled if the server admin wants people to be able to change their weapons instantly. this however, should probably be turned off as default.

a change that i would like to see though is that a dropped weapon only should contain as much ammo as was in it when it was dropped. if i only have two rockets left in my RL and blow up myself with one of them. then the RL dropped near the body would only contain one rocket when the next player comes by and picks it up. i think this would make ammo boxes and the real weapon spawn positions more valuable.

as it is now you get fully replenished ammo when you pick up a dropped weapon - very strange if you ask me :D

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Speaker
Happy Camper
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Joined: Mar 10, 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi pulchr,

Thanks for you thoughts and the fast reply.

pulchr wrote:

in my opinion there's no need to limit the amount of max ammo each weapon can have.

Well, maybe it would make players a bit more cautious about wasting rockets or grenades in random sprees.

Quote::

changing any of the weapons' firing rate changes their use and the gameplay completely and should be tested extremely thoroughly to see if there's a point.

I just included the _possibility_ of doing it easily if the need arises.

Quote::

i believe more in changing their damage than firing rate - for example i could go along with a small reduction of the railgun damage and a change to the lightning gun so that it makes less damage at longer distances (changed in quake live).

OK, these can be done I think. I will give it a try if other people here also agree. What would be a reasonable railgun damage value? Should the LG damage fall off smoothly by distance? How is it working in QL?

Quote::

the bfg is really only a ffa easy fun gun and should not be included in teamplay maps anyway - leave it as it is imo.

Opinions differ, lets hear what others say on this.

Quote::

i don't see a reason to remove the team arena weapons. it's better for the server to have settings that can disable weapons not suitable. if i set up a server where people always spawn with all the weapons but i don't like the bfg or prox mines i could set a variable to disable them. and maps designed to contain these weapons are designed like that for a reason.

Again, we need consensus. We also have to consider the current situation. Are these weapons (maps containing these weapons) used frequently? Are there many servers using these weapons or other elements of TA? Also, we have decided that we want a minimal Q3A distro. Now missionpack/TA is a later add-on (and AFAIK a not very popular one at that). So why keep it?

BTW, all this stuff really bloats and complicates the code (countless #ifdef #else #endif constructs that are very hard to follow). Easy to make mistakes when you modify such code. It would be much easier to maintain the source without all this shit.

Quote::

and i guess that the fast weapon switch is an instant weapon change, no delay whatsoever - and therefore need to be server controlled if the server admin wants people to be able to change their weapons instantly. this however, should probably be turned off as default.

It is OFF by default. I will change the type of Cvar to server side.

Quote::

a change that i would like to see though is that a dropped weapon only should contain as much ammo as was in it when it was dropped. if i only have two rockets left in my RL and blow up myself with one of them. then the RL dropped near the body would only contain one rocket when the next player comes by and picks it up. i think this would make ammo boxes and the real weapon spawn positions more valuable.

as it is now you get fully replenished ammo when you pick up a dropped weapon - very strange if you ask me :D

Yes, you are right. This is a good idea. It will be a bit tricky to do since at present the engine considers all weapon items identical. So I will have to add a new variable to each weapon's parameter structure that will hold the actual amount of ammo in it. Not sure if possible, I will try it.

Speaker

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Happy Camper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi PopeJo,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have some comments and questions concerning the ideas you proposed.

Quote::

speclock - make it impossible for players to spec the other team in gametypes like TDM, CA, and such.

I understand the aim of this restriction, but how can the server determine if someone connecting as a spectator is a member of one of the teams or an interested outsider who just wants to see the game? Is there a system like this implemented (and working correctly!) in any mod? Maybe we could check/compare IP numbers? It would force the false spectator to use a different computer and/or connection, and would make the whole thing so inconvenient as to be practically useless.

Quote::

implement real teammodel and enemymodel cvars.

This should not be very difficult (after all, code to force a user specified model is already there). I will give it a try.

Quote::

is the announcer bug in here

Most probably yes, since the Q3MIN engine is derived from the Openarena engine source (not pure ioquake3 stuff). Not much chance of fixing if this bug is so intermittent and hard to reproduce.

Quote::

make the sarge default model less fps hungry

As soon as you persuade a good 3D modeler to join us, it will be done. I cannot make even the simplest MD3 model. :(

Speaker

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I have joined the forums and linked where I will place any of the gpl media I can provide.

I have also sent speaker the redone textures with the rainbow style portals/teleportors (although I dont know if they have been added as yet).

I can try to contact people from the past who maybe able to help, but with so much on my to do and keep doing list I will probably be more of a liability if I take much more on.

I think it will be a fun project and even though the default OA textures aren't in the core game, any OA maps can just be compatible as the custom ones found elsewhere so I assume it can be just as useful or even assist mappers who are building the ones for OA (since q3min is a small download).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Does this bug with the sound only happens after hours of play (or is it the server time)... and is does it affect both windows and XP.

One thing I do notice with the OA sounds is they are often longer than the default q3 sounds.. so maybe there's a restriction on how many channels (or whatever the technical term is) that can be played simultaneously and that prevents the wav being played. But it still doesn't explain why it happens over x amount of time I guess :ump:

ps. with the oa sounds I shortened some of them because they sometimes overlapped (too many clicks if you picked up multiple items) so maybe if this is an intermitent thing it may happen less. I guess time and testing will tell :D


Last edited by chiquita on Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kernel_panic
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Quote::
in my opinion there's no need to limit the amount of max ammo each weapon can have. changing any of the weapons' firing rate changes their use and the gameplay completely and should be tested extremely thoroughly to see if there's a point. i believe more in changing their damage than firing rate - for example i could go along with a small reduction of the railgun damage and a change to the lightning gun so that it makes less damage at longer distances (changed in quake live).

I agree with pulchr, for the most part.

Quote::
Also, what should be done with the mission pack weapons (nailgun, etc.) which are at present included? For that matter, should we get rid of the whole mission pack/TA shit? I vote to remove it completely and good riddance. Please, let me know you opinion.

What does the mission pack exactly do? If I take the nailgun and proximity mines as a measure of it I vote for its complete removal (and destruction). But I don't know what else is in there...The elimination games are fun, is that part of the mission pack?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

kernel_panic wrote:


What does the mission pack exactly do? If I take the nailgun and proximity mines as a measure of it I vote for its complete removal (and destruction). But I don't know what else is in there...The elimination games are fun, is that part of the mission pack?

Well after playing years of noghost, Maverick has included turrets and decoys (he probably spent hours coding these but they arent popular at all for a serious game)..

If you search for turrets and decoys in the options you will see there are so many ways they can be used..

noghost.net/modfiles/1...mmands.php

I guess the turrets are the same as the mines. I dont ever recall the nailgun being used but Mav also added new game modes like 'muckleball'.

While they were/are fun, there are only about maybe 5-10 servers out of 300 that have extra things like turrets... all the rest of the servers are mainly freezetag or standard games so that might give an idea of how popular they maybe. IMO I couldnt care less if that was all removed. My preference is keep it simple as a standard q3 style all the way :D

Even on my server, i still get the odd complaint about weapons respawning after a few seconds (I got that idea from jack and it is much fairer)... but they complain because it's just not the standard q3 way, even if it's only a small change.

And one last request...

A 1000ups rocket speed option.... I CANT STAND 900!! :ops:
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PopeJo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Speaker wrote:

Quote::

speclock - make it impossible for players to spec the other team in gametypes like TDM, CA, and such.
I understand the aim of this restriction, but how can the server determine if someone connecting as a spectator is a member of one of the teams or an interested outsider who just wants to see the game? Is there a system like this implemented (and working correctly!) in any mod? Maybe we could check/compare IP numbers? It would force the false spectator to use a different computer and/or connection, and would make the whole thing so inconvenient as to be practically useless.

that would be too much work. it would be sufficient if the players within a team can't spec the other team while dead (in TDM, CA). in my opinion it is a bug, that you can, while being dead in CA, spectate ALL other players until the next round, not only the ones from your team.

its ok to have spectators being able to watch all. under tournament conditions, spectating will only be allowed for referees anyway by the rules of the tournament. its not necessary to introduce a complete spectators-administration section in the game for that.

Speaker wrote:

Quote::

implement real teammodel and enemymodel cvars.

This should not be very difficult (after all, code to force a user specified model is already there). I will give it a try.

yay! :O)

Speaker wrote:

Quote::

is the announcer bug in here

Most probably yes, since the Q3MIN engine is derived from the Openarena engine source (not pure ioquake3 stuff). Not much chance of fixing if this bug is so intermittent and hard to reproduce.

here is the old thread on the announcer bug. the last post has some tech-talk jibberish in it, that I don't understand. but i guess everyone just says no one knows how to fix it.. :ump:

openarena.ws/board/ind...4#msg22604

Speaker wrote:

Quote::

make the sarge default model less fps hungry

As soon as you persuade a good 3D modeler to join us, it will be done. I cannot make even the simplest MD3 model. :(

Speaker

I'll try to annoy people in this forum =D

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

aah... I think that's the same thing when some of the awards are delayed (the thread). But the flag issue maybe different.. because on some mods (and maybe the normal game) the same wav file is played twice when a player captures the flag. Maybe the other players only hear it once.

When I went through the OA sounds I noticed they where a bit weird and didn't play the same sound I expected with the file names. But I still have a feeling it maybe something to do with too many audio files playing at the same time. I will compare the OA ones with q3, but I know there's not the same issue with q3 because I played alot of ctf insta. Then again, if it's an openal problem then it could be related to that which wont help figure it out. I'll still compare them anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

PopeJo wrote:


I'll try to annoy people in this forum =D

I dont have a problem in that department either, even unknowingly :D

and btw.. how come my smiley thing is always checked at disabled.... is that normal or should i try clear cookies?
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kernel_panic
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Quote::
Quote::
Quote::

make the sarge default model less fps hungry

As soon as you persuade a good 3D modeler to join us, it will be done. I cannot make even the simplest MD3 model. :(

I'll try to annoy people in this forum =D
Quote::

I dont have a problem in that department either, even unknowingly :D

Should we say H. Focus? No, no, too obvious, let's say Hyper F.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

i just created an account on the q3min forum, just in case i can help ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

0xdan wrote:
i just created an account on the q3min forum, just in case i can help ;)

It would be nice to have a list of all the people, who could list anything they could help with no matter how big or small it is - even playing/testing. Then we could browse through it and see if anyone could put together something quicker or better.. a pm or/and post could be sent and not care too much if there's no reply, it can just be assumed the person is busy. Then if a new member joins they might have core skills that they could list that might have otherwise went unnoticed.

For example, we all know joki is a map specialist so we can go piss him off and ask him for a quick list of recommended tdm maps and save someone hours to go hunt them :D
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Loads of stuff to read.

1st, weapon change serverside, imo to have a fair game so that all players have the "almost" same enviroment. This is specialy important for new players who would be in a further dissadvantage not knowing for the option.

2nd never used missionpack, and honestly dont need a few more crappy weapons, 8 are enough to have a fun game.

3rd I see no point in having a bfg at all, I'd drop it.

4th allmost forgot that, RG damage is 80 in quake live = much better.

5th is unlagged an option or am I going to far ahead with this?

My oppinions for now. :)

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