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Redo OA?
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Oh and with the textures redone I made a map pack containing everyones fav maps... contained about 20 popular maps as a 9mb file (because they were remakes or used the default q3 textures.
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Falkland
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

kernel_panic wrote:
The thing is that the most obvious changes that most (experienced, at least) players want are not great changes. Removing the shit weapons, the shit models, THE SHIT maps, and making sure that the protocol doesn't change from version to version would've make wonders; or at least, it would've avoided the player fragmentation and migration seen during the last year.

The protocol change was not so armfull : OA lost quality most in graphics ( shiitty map , the introduction of childish models , nexuiz-ish sounds ..... damn dm6ish was a beatiful map to play before beeing rearranged with that red-disco-prive-ish color that made the ambient too dark .... oa_dm5 had visible grey textures before been rearranged .... I don't care about having faster water rendering when I can't see anything else in the map ... )
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

And here is the comparison using the new textures and sounds. I can even redo the openarena sounds again and make recordings of the process.

The first part shows normal OA, second is my modified effort. I did mention to OA that I was working this, there was no response.

After we released stuff, there was a bitter response requesting about the sources and stuff. It was clear that that the thread was just going to go downhill rapidly.

You can see from the second part of the demo where the textures show... and the sounds change. The first part has the crosshair missing because i was using osp and oa must have had an additional one not used by the game

clanarena.org/arena/vi...inal-test/

After that I didn't bother with OA again. From the beginning I was messing around with q3 mods on OA.. lots of fun games with Derity and Snoo on a dm17 remake. But now I'm back on q3. I rarely visit OA servers anymore, after what I seen after opening all the files up and comparing them to q3 (sound levels etc).

It's all documented on the OA forums anyway, i've forgotten all about it, but a good learning experience all the same.

Even members from here have started playing q3 v1.16 :D Big q3 community there, pity no dl support
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Falkland
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Falkland wrote:

...
- proximity mine can be used as a tactical weapon but they should be made spam-proof ( respawn time should be higher than normal weapons , and they should become a rare weapon
...

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kernel_panic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Some ideas thrown randomly.

-Revert all the crap introduced since 0.7.1
-Slash all the stupid maps
-Make a good selection of player models, which odd as it sounds, they are amongst the best ones for free FPS games out there
-Add brightskins by default
-New announcer voice(s)
-Replace the crap sounds
-New menu
-Add in-game documentation + demos
-Centralised repository to download updates, new maps, maps with a closed license
-Centralised statistics handling?
-Do whatever it takes to have the original Q3 feeling
-Include the most popular mods by default if license allows, otherwise make it easy to install them via the repository
-Include Jocke's launcher (or something similar if the python dependencies are too big for Windows users)
-Build, test and distribute WORKING and completely configured packages of the map editor (the binary is relatively small, actually)
-Set up some clear and agreed guidelines for contributions
-License splitting? Can we even do this, i.e. having a sane and appropiate license for art work and GPL for the code?

The most important one:

-Gather a critical mass of people willing to contribute and play. There are loads of individuals that appeared in the OA forum and later left for 'no reason'. Some of them are probably lurking mappers forums and should be possible to call their attention again. Coders may be a greater issue, and even worse 2D and 3D artists.

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PopeJo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

- setup should be splitted.
a) normal, similar to what it is like now, rather basic settings like "low quality & high fps" and "high quality" to choose from, without needing to know details
b) pro, adds all the extra options, that are normaly put in the autoexec.cfg. like team binds generator. or - an autoexec generator like this one: www.holysh1t.net/quake...generator/ is linked in the setup, so more people, who are willing to invest some time, can have a decent setup.

- automatic log files of games / in-game chat / game stats
these logs could be read by other programs, to create for example a html game statistic on the basis of the logs in your game folder.

-automatic screenshots of scores.
not possible so far, as screenshots kill the optix and need a vid_restart on some gfxcards.

..more brainstorming later ;)

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

ss and stuff should be kinda easy.. just get it from the osp source. :/
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

wtf has happend OA site? Its not the first time its been down, even for days. Probably be up later... or a maybe a week or two
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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

[quote="Falkland"]
Falkland wrote:

...
- proximity mine can be used as a tactical weapon but they should be made spam-proof ( respawn time should be higher than normal weapons , and they should become a rare weapon
...

These are just fun things. Across 300 servers there are about 3 or 4 turret servers.. even decoys arent used.. but they are fun. I think it's too much noise and chaos to play properly. It can be tactical, but even so that it's much worse than hunting a camper. These things can be placed in walls too.. they are buggy.

They are best used on strafe runs just before someone is about to complete a set of pads xD

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I posted on ioquake3 forums see if anyone there knows anything. Strange how noone seems to be able give ANY kind of idea why its down.

There's alot of good content there from contributers.

ioquake.org/forums/vie...?f=2&t=573
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Falkland
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

kernel_panic wrote:

...
-Centralised statistics handling?
...

This could be problematic because it will need for sure a db-based solution

BTW , OA site is back ...
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Speaker
Happy Camper
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Joined: Mar 10, 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Szeged, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Hi,

I am also convinced that something should be done to make OA a better and more competitive game. I think that QL is not so great: it lacks good maps (at least for now) and does not allow the use of private servers. I have also heard that some people had problems with lag and instability (myself included).

Unfortunately, the attitude of OA developers/administrators (you know who) simply does not make it possible to do development within the 'official' framework. Therefore, it must be done by making a fork of the 'official' release.

The engine itself is mostly OK as it is. I do not see why it would be necessary or beneficial to revert to the original 1.32b code base of id. The developers of ioquake3 did a fairly good job of cleaning/fixing the code. Any additions (e.g. VoIP) can be easily removed if necessary. The rest of the stuff (artwork) needs cleaning up (removing crappy maps and models, resizing textures, adding good sounds, etc.). Something like what chiquita has already done.

The aim of the fork should be to get an absolutely minimal distribution that supports playing custom maps made for VQ3 and provides the most popular game modes (DM, TDM, CTF, Instagib). With the texture replacement pack chiquita and I made, every required element seems to be available to create such a minimal distro.

Next we could set up a map repository (like they did it for Nexuiz) and collect a bunch of nice custom maps there. The default install of the game would have auto download enabled and the download URL set to this map archive. Actually, a good, fast location already exists: we can probably get permission to use download.tuxfamily.org...files/pk3/. Of course, the minimal distro should also contain a selected group of maps (about 10 to 15) so that people can start playing off-line to try the game.

After the minimal distro is established, we can gradually introduce some of the new features/enhancements mentioned in this topic. I also have a few ideas about how and what to change (some of them I have already implemented in my source mod called Q3M). However, I think this is not the proper time to make a long (and possibly boring) list of them.

The crucial prerequisite for such a fork to work has already been stated by 'kernel_panic':

Quote::

Gather a critical mass of people willing to contribute and play. There are loads of individuals that appeared in the OA forum and later left for 'no reason'. Some of them are probably lurking mappers forums and should be possible to call their attention again. Coders may be a greater issue, and even worse 2D and 3D artists.

I myself would be glad to contribute to such a project. I have some experience in coding and compiling the engine, I have working code bases for several different versions of the OA engine. I also have some experience in making maps (did a couple of conversions of Quake and UT99 maps for Q3A).

Anybody else interested?

Speaker

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

Well,

you know my feelings about not wanting to try and manage any kind of project. But I could submit some very special stuff by talented people. I could ask friends who are professionals in the industry to assist.

As far as sounds go, I wouldnt be looking for sources on the web. They would be straight from recording studios and mastered to suit. It would be then up to people to choose what they want.

All i would need to do is speak to people, it would cost little time. My textures can be improved, so any poor work is better than starting from scratch.

The only thing that would keep me happy is having a small download containing sensible and quality material and it would be close to q3.

One point I think should be considered, is that the discussions that go on with OA have all been discussed in 2002... You only need to look at all the popular stuff from the unpopular. No point in going round in circles. We already know what people want. IMO a minimal package would be ideal. For different game types perhaps there can be a modular package of maps that people can download totally compatible with the base package. Consider than some people will never go near defrag, and defrag players may just not be interested in playing tourney type stuff. But there still could be paks that come with the bundle that could allow people to give stuff a go.

Perhaps non gpl stuff could be agreed as recommended packages to keep them consistant on servers.

If any code is required, it may not have to be written from scratch, sometimes by talking to the right people can help.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

chiquita wrote:

you know my feelings about not wanting to try and manage any kind of project. But I could submit some very special stuff by talented people. I could ask friends who are professionals in the industry to assist.

You would not have to manage or coordinate anything, don't worry. :/ I believe that even the two of us could make the minimal distro. It is not a big deal (we just have to throw out stuff, that's easy). And you already made a start and I already have a fairly good collection of custom maps for the map repository.

chiquita wrote:

One point I think should be considered, is that the discussions that go on with OA have all been discussed in 2002... You only need to look at all the popular stuff from the unpopular. No point in going round in circles. We already know what people want.

Yes, it is a good idea to look at the OA forums to see what changes would be popular and acceptable to the majority. But this would be stage 2, after the minimal distro is well established. And for this we would need more people contributing.

chiquita wrote:

IMO a minimal package would be ideal. For different game types perhaps there can be a modular package of maps that people can download totally compatible with the base package. Consider than some people will never go near defrag, and defrag players may just not be interested in playing tourney type stuff. But there still could be paks that come with the bundle that could allow people to give stuff a go.

I agree. The minimal distro should contain only a few basic maps necessary for playing the game types supported by the minimal distro. Everything else should be optional.

chiquita wrote:

Perhaps non gpl stuff could be agreed as recommended packages to keep them consistant on servers.

GPL and non-GPL modules should be strictly segregated to avoid nasty arguments with leilol and Co.

chiquita wrote:

If any code is required, it may not have to be written from scratch, sometimes by talking to the right people can help.

Nice to know the right people... :/

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chiquita
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Redo OA? Reply with quote

I would look at the noghost vars and see how mav has worked it. Many of these have been a result of direct requests. And some of them have changed because they didnt work out, or had additional related values that offer more options (such as all the anti-camp measures).

noghost.net/modfiles/1...mmands.php

It might give ideas, because these are tried and tested solutions. clanbase currently run noghost and cpma competitions.. google a clanbase server config and see what rules have been implemented. These rules have also changed over time because some TDM games have lasted over an hour, so the server settings should be pretty much ideal for what people want.

I really don't see the point of discussing from the beginning how to resolve some annoyances, especially when it may not annoy others and from almost a decade ago people have already been addressing the issues

In the clanbase/noghost forums there are probably lots of discussions on camping and there have been anti-camp things put in place that have compimises... it might be that the radius has been increased so you can still play tactful and not end up getting killed by some stupid restriction. Hundreds of people are quite happy to play by the clanbase rules, noone complains. cpma of course will have similar stuff which has been ported to noghost but I dont know about cpma. Most noghost servers are freeze tag.. so that should be considered.. some server configs contain stuff related to that type of gametype.

When I played osp I thought the number of cvars and options were a bit much. it confused people and most people dont want to remember or read tons of stuff that do very little.
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